Kaiser: I'm Kaiser Kuo, coming to you this week from 北大 (Běidà) Peking University in Beijing — my favorite city in the world. We're going to turn today to a story from, well, the darkest days of the Second World War, one that has echoed through generations of both Chinese and Americans. The story of the Flying Tigers, 飞虎队 (fēihǔduì), the American Volunteer Group of pilots who came to China even before the United States entered the war after Pearl Harbor, and who became legends for their exploits in the skies over Burma, over Yunnan, and beyond. Their shark-toothed P-40s and their daring tactics not only gave badly needed help to China’s defenses but also gave symbolic proof that China was not alone in its struggle.
Now, for decades, of course, the Flying Tigers have been invoked as a touchstone in U.S.-China relations, a reminder of a time when our countries were allies bound by a common purpose. From wartime propaganda to contemporary statecraft. Their story has been retold, memorialized, and sometimes mythologized. My own father, who spent his childhood in Chongqing, insisted to me that as a boy he watched dogfights between what he called the Flying Tigers and Japanese planes over the skies over the skies of Chongqing, and I never quite had the heart to tell him that actually, the Flying Tigers themselves never fought in Chongqing, but there were a lot of Douglas planes that had the Flying Tiger, sort of shark’s tooth emblem painted on their nose. So, you can see how quickly this whole idea became mythologized. Beyond the legend, of course, lies a fascinating question.
How does this memory matter today? What does it mean when Chinese and American leaders or civic groups speak of the Flying Tigers' spirits? And how might we understand this legacy in the context of present-day U.S.-China relations, which are obviously very different now from where they were during the war? Now, I am delighted to have with me someone who has thought and written extensively about precisely this question. My guest today is Professor Wang Dong, who earned his PhD from UCLA and is a professor at the School of International Studies at Peking University, where he also serves as deputy director and executive director of the Office for Humanities and Social Sciences, and the Institute for Global Cooperation and Understanding. Professor Wang’s scholarship and public commentary focus on U.S.-China relations, Cold War history, and the uses of historical memory in diplomacy.
He has been an especially thoughtful voice in connecting the Flying Tiger's legacy with today's efforts to stabilize and strengthen the people-to-people ties between the two countries. Professor Wang, welcome to Sinica.
Prof. Wang Dong: Thank you. Thank you, Kaiser.
Kaiser: So, with the anniversary of the Japanese surrender that just passed, having done the parade and everything, tell us how the Flying Tigers have been used as an emblem in public diplomacy and in civil society exchange. What makes this particular story so resonant among, you know, so many other stories of Sino-American wartime connections as a vehicle for normative outreach or even for soft power?
Prof. Wang: The Flying Tigers remain one of the most important symbols of Sino-American friendship. Their story is commemorated through ceremonies, museum partnerships, and official speeches that highlight the sacrifices made on both sides in cooperation against one common enemy. But the story is so resonant not because it exists normally in official exchanges and memorials but also exists on a level of civil engagement that has lasting cultural outreaches.
It exists in children's books, movies, novels, and so on. Altruism, personal sacrifice, and perseverance, as well as the daring aerial battles — you just mentioned some of that — lent cinematic force to the tale. And the Chinese people's genuine gratitude towards this friendship made this wartime memory into an emotional engagement. And this story also delivered deeply connects with individuals through a clear good- versus-evil moral framework that both nations can celebrate, enabling public diplomacy and civil society exchanges that resonate far beyond the anniversary of Japan's surrender.
Kaiser: Yeah. Yeah, totally. I mean, you say it's got this resonant emotional appeal. It obviously does. I mean, there were a lot of sort of heroics, dogfights. There have been television shows and movies about them in the United States. I'm more curious in China, how they've been depicted. You mentioned children's books and things like that. What are some examples of the way that the Flying Tigers are talked about in Chinese popular culture?
Prof. Wang: I think the Flying Tiger spirit has been celebrated also in the Chinese historical narrative about AVGs. So, the Flying Tigers' spirit, I think, functions more as a moral narrative of transpacific solidarity. Historically, it is more, sort of mercenary unit contracted by the Chinese nationalist government, plagued by logistical constraints, uneven training and complicated politics. The narrative, however, highlights voluntary sacrifice, cross-cultural friendship and a sense of shared destiny long before the United States formally entered the war. So, in Chinese discourse, this becomes proof that foreigners recognize Chinese struggle against aggression and chose to help. In U.S. rhetoric, it becomes a parable of individual freedom and humanitarian duty. There's also some people who will say a discrepancy between historical fact and narrative.
But I don't think such discrepancy is, in a way, negative because real sacrifice are made and a real friendship is built. It embodies partly some cooperation without touching present flashpoints. At the same time, such abstraction is powerful and helpful. It is a precedent for constructive relations that could be sincerely recognized by Chinese and Americans and mobilized whenever the two sides seek common ground.
Kaiser: So, Prof. Wang, when people invoke the Flying Tigers today, especially when China brings up the Flying Tigers, who tends to be the primary audience? Is it domestic Chinese audiences? Is it the Chinese diaspora? Maybe. Is it U.S. civic groups or is it the American state? Is it the U.S. government? What's the intended messaging for the intended audience?
Prof. Wang: Well, I think this is a very interesting question. I think even though different people, diplomats or heritage groups could adjust the framing currently toward different audiences to deliver different messages, I think the invocation of Flying Tigers, in hearing, actually carries multiple layers of meanings to different audiences. For instance, for domestic Chinese, the story reinforces national resilience and international friendship, demonstrating that China's anti-Japanese war has won general admiration abroad. And for the Chinese diaspora, you also mentioned that it is a reminder that overseas Chinese communities can embody both a patriotic pride and global connectedness. And for U.S. civic groups and veteran organizations, the message could be shared sacrifice and a grassroots goodwill, keeping alive a tradition of altruism that transcends current politics. And, of course, there is also the broader international audiences. And for them, I think the narrative showcases that Washington and Beijing have a history of pragmatic cooperation, even during turbulent times.
Kaiser: Yeah. So, in China today, there is deliberate effort to preserve all sorts of legacy from the Second World War in museums and things like that. When it comes to the AVG, how does China seek to preserve it? Are there museums dedicated to it? Other memorials? Are there conferences that are held, academic centers? Is it the local governments? And how much of this is driven by central leadership as opposed to grassroots initiatives or local government initiatives?
Prof. Wang: I would say that China's AVG memory infrastructure is quite diverse and actually layered. For instance, we have museums and memorial parks in various local provinces, such as Yunnan, Guanxi, and Chongqing city. These are often built around former airfields, crash sites, and key supply routes used during the war. Local governments usually play a very important key role in sort of taking charge of those projects by providing land, construction help, and organizing exhibits. They usually team up with the NGOs, private donors and descendants' associations to gather artifacts and personal stories. And, in addition to that, I think universities and local research centers usually also come in and help digitizing documents, holding, you know, you mentioned conferences, and training tool guides to share this history.
And indeed, I think, my own Asia Institute for Global Cooperation Understanding, a few years ago, we also partnered with the local institute in Chongqing to help, I think, many of those events. And, of course, the central leadership also serve for anniversary of significant events, help boost funding and media coverage. But the everyday operation of those museum and memorials are generally driven by local efforts. So, curators, retired teachers, and local historians keep things going with limited budget and partnership. The result is, of course, an ecosystem where I think the center amplifies rather than micromanage.
Kaiser: Okay, good, good. I'm curious, though, since the 1990s, we've had a patriotic education push in China. And I'm sure the Flying Tiger story features in that. I'm curious because sitting alongside it are other narratives about the U.S. and its involvement in Chinese history that aren't so positive. So, how do these two kinds of stories, one very, very positive, all about, as you say, altruism and sacrifice and the other about American bullying, American interference in Chinese affairs, how do these two sit next to each other?
Prof. Wang: I think the most Chinese people, many Chinese people likely learn about the story of Flying Tigers outside of formal education. Primarily through popular culture — novels and films. I can give you one notable example from the film called Forever Young, shot in 2018, which tells the story of a student from Tsinghua University named Shen Guangyao, who is inspired by a real person, and he joins the Flying Tigers. Ultimately, sacrificing himself in the battle against the Japanese. So, while the film definitely conveys a sense of patriotism. But outside the film, I think the overall message across the board emphasizes themes of friendship. So, foreigners who aided China's justice struggle, villagers who rescue airmen, and Sino-American cooperation.
So, this portrayal does not, I think, does not clash with a broader narrative taught in Chinese school curricula. Therefore, in most educational contexts, U.S. history is not treated as an isolated subject. Rather, I think it is sort of integrated into study of world history particularly during high school. Some of this curriculum spans significant events from the founding of the U.S. up to World War II, and beyond.
Kaiser: Okay, okay. So, Prof. Wang, you did your PhD in the United States, in Los Angeles, on the U.S. side, from talking to Americans, from even talking to people who you were working with at UCLA, did you sense that there was a lot of awareness about the AVG and their role in China among the general public, among maybe veteran groups, even in the U.S. Air Force? And is that leveraged on the U.S. side in U.S.-China exchange at all?
Prof. Wang: I think this is a very interesting question. I think the awareness in the United States, actually, I think, is stratified. Frankly, I think among the general public, I think there is a lack of knowledge about the AVG, while limited recognition could happen around anniversaries, in films, and then fail. Veterans organizations and air museum communities sustain higher literacy because they host lectures and exhibits. You mentioned U.S. Air Force. I think, within the U.S. Air Force, my understanding is that AVG sits in the broader heritage of airpower and coalition warfare. Practitioners leverage this awareness through targeted programing, rather than mass campaigns. Sister partnership with AVG sites, museum to museum exchanges and public ceremonies, featuring both American descendants and Chinese counterparts, I think this efforts actually work because they convert nostalgia into real contact between peoples. I think that’s my understanding.
Kaiser: Yeah. I mean, I'm a very big believer in people that people contact, and anything that helps that is great. But there the narratives diverge. You were talking about how, in China, there's a particular framing of them, U.S., maybe when they do know anything about the AVG at all, there is sort of this America as liberator narrative, the story of freedom and the spread of liberal values. Whereas in China, as you say, it emphasizes anti-Japanese solidarity, emphasizes Chinese gratitude for American volunteers and things like that. Is there a way to bridge these narratives or do they cause problems with the divergence?
Prof. Wang: Sure. Of course. As you mentioned divergent narratives surrounding the Flying Tigers; and I think these divergent narratives of the Flying Tigers, they actually stem from distinct national contexts and historical memories. The American framing center on freedom and liberal values reflects its post-World War II identity, right? Was a defender of such ideals. Highlighting the volunteer's choice to fight tyranny aligned with America's self-image as a champion of global freedom. China's focus on entire Germany's solidarity and gratitude arises from its suffering during the anti-Japanese war. So, the Flying Tigers support was a critical lifeline, symbolizing international aid in its fight for survival.
So, I think these narratives are not inherently contradictory, and I believe they actually can be breached. At their core, both celebrate the Flying Tigers courage and the alliance against fascism, emphasizing shared goals, defeating a common aggressor, and honoring the mutual sacrifice American pilots, as well as Chinese ground support can unify these stories together.
So, I think a balanced perspective that acknowledge each nation's historical lanes while highlighting the common value of wartime cooperation will help foster understanding, turning divergence into a richer collective memory of the Flying Tigers' legacy.
Kaiser: So, a 20 year old pilot flying back then with Claire Chennault in 1940. He's 100 years old if he's still alive today. I mean, and I think they're pretty much all gone now. All the pilots, probably all the crewmen who flew with them. How are we going to preserve the memory of that beyond the deaths of them? Because are there enough sort of U.S. civic organizations and Chinese civic organizations, the heritage groups, the sister cities, things, these friendships, societies that have been keeping it alive. Are they going to continue to be able to keep this alive now that there really are no more survivors of that time?
Prof. Wang: You're right. I think this is quite a challenge. I think veteran associations, U.S. civic groups, and their Chinese counterparts, have turned their Flying Tigers memory into living exchange by centering shared authoritarian, cross cultural events, and intergenerational engagement. So, thanks to their efforts, I think, we are nowadays in a much better position in preserving those memories.
The U.S. veteran groups such as the Flying Tigers Association and the Chinese heritage organizations lead oral history project, for instance. They record veterans accounts and share them via museums, online platforms, preserving personal narratives that transcend politics. They also co-host commemorative events, such as annual ceremonies, marking key World War II battles or exhibitions, such as displaying vintage aircraft or pilots' letters, etc., That, to both those countries letting the public connect with history more tangibly and having sister cities and friendship societies also play a very important role here. They help expand this to daily exchange. For example, use Chinese sister cities link to Flying Tigers' history, such as Kunming and Tucson, run student programs, use exchanges, join the research on the Flying Tigers, or cultural workshops that help teach younger generations about the story.
So civic groups also facilities people-to-people bonds, organizing visit for veterans families to China or sporting community projects such as scholarships, named after the Flying Tigers. So, altogether, I think, these efforts from various different organizations groups, they help keep the legacy from fading. Turning a historical partnership into an ongoing friendship.
Kaiser: So, Prof. Wang, the Flying Tigers were not the only Americans in China's skies in those years. Actually, they weren't the only foreign force in… I mean, I was just reminded in a conversation I had with Rana Mitter about, actually, there were Soviet fighters who also were flying, but for another podcast. There's also the story, of course, of the Doolittle Raiders who bombed Tokyo in 1942, and many of whom landed in Zhejiang. Actually, you're from Zhejiang, right?
Prof. Wang: Yes.
Kaiser: Yeah, where Chinese villagers risked their lives to shelter the pilots. There was a show that I actually did with the daughter of one of those villagers, a very well-known journalist here who's been… I mean, she actually opened the Newsweek bureau here in the early 1980s — Melinda Liu. Her father, was one of these people who helped the Doolittle Raiders. And she's done quite a bit of work on that. And so, we talked about that on the show, and I'll put a link to that. But anyway, how do you see the Doolittle Raid, and especially the Chinese who help those airmen complementing… how does that sort of work in complementarity with the Flying Tigers narrative in the political memory of the Sino-American relationship?
Prof. Wang: I think you're right. I think the do little raids and the Chinese villages' heroic aid, they complement the Flying Tigers narrative because it helped deepen the Sino-American memory politics by highlighting shared sacrifice at different stages of World War II. So, while the Flying Tigers focus on sustained aerial battle between 1941 to '42, defending China's skies, while, I think, the 1942 Doolittle raids was a bold one-time mission. They relied entirely on Chinese, civilians, villagers risk, tortured or death to hide downed airmen, guided them to safety, and smuggled them to government forces. So, this story echoes that Flying Tigers theme of cross-national solidarity, but adds a grassroots layer, right? Emphasizing that Sino-American cooperation wasn't just between militaries, but also between ordinary people. So, together, I think these two narrative actually paint a fuller picture together. The Flying Tigers, as organized allies, Doolittle rescuers, as civilian heroes, for memory politics, this brass, I think, actually sends the message that a bilateral friendship is rooted in mutual courage, whether by pilots or villagers. So, you mentioned your show with Miss Melinda Liu, for example, I think it amplified this by centering personal intergenerational stories. Making both histories relatable and reinforcing their shared role in shaping Sino-American ties.
Kaiser: Let's pivot now from history and memory to policy today. Because the Flying Tiger story doesn't just live in museums. It's very much invoked at the very highest levels of diplomacy. So, in the weeks, for example, before the Woodside Summit, that was just south of San Francisco, Xi Jinping actually signed his name to a piece that was in the People's Daily above the fold, invoking the Flying Tigers' spirit and the memory of the Flying Tigers. I mean, for somebody like me, it's obvious what that means. Every time, if you're in China and suddenly you turn on the TV, you see a lot of Korean War movies, you know, that maybe that sends a particular signal. But another signal is sent entirely when you when you suddenly see the Chinese president writing positively about the Flying Tigers. So, from your perspective, what was the message that Beijing was sending by emphasizing the legacy at that particular moment?
Prof. Wang: President Xi's reference to the Flying Tigers in his People's Daily article, just before the Woodside Summit, I think served several layered purposes. First, domestically, it signaled to the Chinese audiences that Beijing seeks stable, great power relations grounded in historical friendship, even when our relationship is going through strategic tensions. And second, internationally, it reminded the United States and its public of a time when American voluntarily defended the Chinese skies, implying that cooperation is not only possible, but also part of a shared tradition. And I think the timing is also very important. Just days before a high-stakes meeting with U.S. President Biden, underscores a desire to soften the atmosphere, offering a positive narrative that both sides find welcoming. So importantly, so I think the invocation require no policy concessions while projecting goodwill. It is a reminder that cooperation has president, and therefore remains imaginable. Therefore, I think it helps create goodwill atmosphere before Woodside Summit, which actually turned out to be very successful.
Kaiser: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I wonder how well these messages get received. I mean, do American policymakers hear them? Do they understand them? Do they land in the way that they're intended? I mean, I wonder whether they even are aware of the signal when it's sent. You know, there's a signal has to be understood in order to have effect, right?
Prof. Wang: Right. I think, I can only guess, of course, I think American foreign policy analysts, and I believe they should treat the Chinese references to the Flying Tigers as sort of multi-dimensional. So, simultaneously, it's a sincere outreach. And of course, there's also a bit of symbolism involved. I think the sincerity lies, in general, to Chinese gratitude for wartime assistance, reinforced by robust local memorial culture. And analysts, I think should not, of course, dismiss American allies. I mean, should not dismiss such gestures as mere propaganda because Flying Tigers references are best read as a good way invitation to de-escalate and also explore practical cooperation. Right? By referring back to the history of when we were friends, we were fighting against a common enemy.
Kaiser: Yeah, things were better.
Prof. Wang: Yeah.
Kaiser: Exactly. I mean, so it's an olive branch, obviously. But I mean, I worry, though, because with the depth of the strategic rivalry today, I worry that invocations of the Flying Tigers legacy just become sort of hollow. They no longer mean as much to the Americans. They're viewed maybe even as cynical histories, as sort of this kind of veneer. What would you caution against in how we deploy history, on how either side deploys it? Is there a danger of that at all, do you see?
Prof. Wang: Well, this is a very important question. I think, amid today's Sino-American sort of tensions, I think you're right. There's a real danger that Flying Tigers legacy become hollow, reduced to a rhetorical veneer to mask tensions if we invoke without sincerity or respect voice call, which is mutual sacrifice and shared purpose. So, the risk, I think, lies in "instrumentalizing history," right? Using the Flying Tigers only for political purposes like talking, mentioning, speeches without follow up on people to people ties or ignoring its nuances, glossing over past cooperation while fueling present distrust. So, I think this not only trivialize these reverent sacrifices, but also erodes public trust in such historical references. To mitigate such risk, there's a couple of things. I think, first, ground invocation in the full story of U.S. Chinese pilots and civilians working together. Second, linking rhetoric to action. If citing the Flying Tigers, pair it with tangible efforts, such as supporting veteran exchanges, funding joint historical research, student program, etc. That reflect the legacy's spirit. Finally prioritizing authenticity over symbolism. Let the legacies focus on empathy and collaboration guide engagement rather than using it as a superficial bridge without real commitment to a dialogue. Only then does legacy retain meaning and will become lasting.
Kaiser: So, Prof. Wang, if you were advising American diplomats, how would you suggest they respond to Chinese invocations of the Flying Tigers? I mean, what tone and what substance would make that response more credible rather than just sort of perfunctory? What would you advise them?
Prof. Wang: Well, oh, let me think. I think the American diplomats probably should respond to Chinese invocation of the Flying Tigers with a tone that is warm but grounding. That means publicly recognizing the bravery of both American volunteers and the Chinese civilians and pilots who fought alongside them while avoiding vague platitudes. Credibility comes from coupling words with concrete cooperation. So, by offering specific, mutually beneficial initiatives and inviting reciprocal commitments, U.S. officials can turn a ceremonial reference into a platform for sustaining people-to-people contact and be inspired to start a dialogue with their Chinese counterparts over present disagreement rather than remain confrontational.
Kaiser: Yeah, yeah. What are some of the other historical bridges that you would highlight? And we talked about the AVG, of course, and the Doolittle Raiders. What are some of the other things in U.S.-China, sort of shared history, it doesn’t even have to be just from the war, what are some of the other things in that portfolio between the China and the U.S. that you could draw on? I mean, I'm thinking about stuff like, I mean, we're here in Haidian District and Tsinghua University with the Boxer Indemnity, Peking Union Medical College. What are some of the other things that somebody like me who tries to work hard to build these bridges should have at the ready in my back pocket to whip out, to remind people of better times?
Prof. Wang: Sure. I think the U.S.-China relations contain many stories of collaboration behind the Flying Tigers. The wartime medical cooperation such as the "China Aid Council" field hospital staffed by Chinese and American doctors, connects directly to modern public health exchanges, right? And the United China Relief, which provided humanitarian aid and raised awareness for the Chinese people during the World War II is also another good example. So, each of these histories, I think, carries concrete, so really oriented lessons that can be translated into current cooperation and friendship.
Kaiser: So, looking ahead now, finally, I mean, what role do you think this shared history can realistically play in at least stabilizing the relationship? I mean, can stories like the Flying Tigers shift the trajectory of a relationship that's as complex as the one between the U.S. and China today, especially when we have somebody like Donald Trump in office who does not exhibit particularly keen historical acuity or memory of history?
Prof. Wang: Sure. You actually mentioned President Trump. I think he watched the September 3rd parade.
Kaiser: Oh, he sure did, yeah.
Prof. Wang: Actually, in his own Truth Social media platform, he actually tweets, you know, they're sort of American, so element for Americans, sort of recognition, sort of contribution being recognized. Actually, the Flying Tigers are being invited, and other veterans groups have been, with their families, were invited to the parade. So, we probably should let President Trump also know about that as well. The shared history will not overwrite structural competition, of course. But it can help keep the relationship from hardening into permanent hostility, at least. So, a story like the Flying Tigers, it helped create this "soft tissue" between the bonds and strategy. They reduce misperception by reminding both publics that cooperation is possible and has real precedent. They also provide readymade platforms, you know, heritage conservation, disaster relief training, student fellowship, etc., that encourage practical collaboration in non-sensitive areas. These initiatives, of course, will not change the balance of power or resolve disputes over trade or security, but, nevertheless, I think they can slow escalation. They can help build trust among the public, between our societies, and also help preserve channels of communication during times of tension. So, in relationship, this complex, as complex as the China-U.S. relationship, I think that layer of resilience is, not cosmetic, I think. It actually it's meaningful. It's real. It can be the difference between breed a risky confrontation and a stable and healthy relationship.
Kaiser: Excellent, excellent. Well, I want to thank you for your time. And, at the end of the show, usually I ask my guests to recommend something. I'm going to ask you specifically to recommend a book or a movie or something in English that my audience can find accessible about the Flying Tigers that you would really like.
Prof. Wang: Sure. I think the movie I just mentioned, Forever Young, I'm not sure it's been translated into English. I'm sure there's an English subtitle of that. I think that movie is also about the history you mentioned that Peking University, Tsinghua University, at that time, you know, the eight, sort of most famous universities, they retreated to the southwest because of invasion. And also, against that historical backdrop, and, of course, there's a young hero, you know, inspired by Flying Tigers. And he actually joined the Flying Tigers and sacrificed himself for the nation and for fighting against fascism. So, I think that's a very excellent movie I would recommend.
Kaiser: Great recommendation. So, it's a 2018 film called Forever Young. What's the Chinese name of it?
Prof. Wang: 无问东西 (wú wèn dōng xī)
Kaiser: Okay, okay. Fantastic. Thanks. I will definitely watch that. I haven't seen it before. I'm actually going to recommend a couple of TV shows I've been watching in tandem. Both just feature people who robbed drug dealers for some reason. They're both centered in Philadelphia and environs. One is called Dope Thief. It's on Apple TV and the other is called Task on HBO, and it stars Mark Ruffalo, and he's really amazing in it. Anyway, thank you once again. It's been very generous of you to invite me here and to talk to me for so long about this very, very, very important topic. I hope that we can continue conversations about other topics in the future.
Prof. Wang: Sure. Thank you for having me, Kaiser. It's my pleasure.
Source: Sinica Podcast
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